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More debate on broodiness
Mainly in case ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
ford_prefect42 doesn't come back to my previous post.
"I kinda figure that everyone has an inborn compulsion to reproduce. It's kinda evolutionary."
It's an interesting theory and I'd like to pick it apart.
If you could define "an inborn compulsion to reproduce" as "a curiosity as to what their offspring would look/be like," then yeah, I do think that everyone has probably pondered on this at some point in their lives.
The fact is that I am an exception. I have no compulsion to reproduce; never have. Only a few moments in my life has a viable argument in favour of breeding entered my head:
- Once, in my late 30s, when it occurred to me that having children is the only means of preserving any bit of one's youth and vitality.
- Once when I felt a tinge of regret that my musical talent wouldn't be passed on to any future generations.
But those arguments were quickly overruled by logic: In the first case, I reasoned that this was as may be, but still didn't make all the downsides worthwhile; in the second case, I realised that there was no guarantee any child of mine would be musically talented, and in the split second thereafter I realised that this is where so many parents go wrong -- having expectations for kids that aren't even born yet, and who inevitably disappoint them by not exhibiting the combination of inherited traits the parents desired.
What Bill's question prompted me to ask myself was: If I were male, would his theory apply to me? In other words, do I actually possess an "inborn compulsion to reproduce" which has been decisively overruled by my stronger desire to not go through pregnancy and childbirth?
In my two previous long-term relationships, my male partners have expressed the desire to have kids. Easy for them to say, was my reaction. But I loved my grown-up partner enough that I actually considered whether there were any conditions under which I'd be willing to become a parent, for their sake. The absolute conditions on this would have been: I don't have to give birth (so adoption); we could skip the earliest, neediest years, before the kid could communicate verbally and use the toilet on its own (so adopting an older child); and they, not me, would be the primary caregiver. In other words, I could never be a mum, but perhaps I could be a dad. In the end the deciding factor was that even if all of my conditions for parenthood were met, if anything happened to my (actual or hypothetical) partner, I'd end up being a single parent to a child I never actually wanted. And no child deserves that. So thus ended the thought exercise.
A hypothetical "inborn compulsion to reproduce" could be overruled by other factors besides not wanting to endure pregnancy and childbirth. For instance, there's the cynic's argument of not wanting to bring a child into a world which is facing imminent ecological and economic devastation. There's also the survivor-of-abuse argument; some people's parents were so horrible as to put them off even the idea of ever being a parent themselves. These motivations are not gender-specific. I've known people in both categories, and am firmly in the first camp myself. Are these motivators sufficient to override the "inborn compulsion", or are they evidence that this "inborn compulsion" is in no way universal?
Because it's really hard to overrule actual inborn compulsions. Look at people who are gay and try to suppress it, for instance. If people were actively suppressing a compulsion to breed, rather than just not having one in the first place, then pretty much everyone would at some point change their mind about having kids, or regret missing their chance. And not everyone does. So no, I think the existence of people who are truly happily child-free into old age disproves the theory.
Counter arguments?
ford_prefect42 doesn't come back to my previous post."I kinda figure that everyone has an inborn compulsion to reproduce. It's kinda evolutionary."
It's an interesting theory and I'd like to pick it apart.
If you could define "an inborn compulsion to reproduce" as "a curiosity as to what their offspring would look/be like," then yeah, I do think that everyone has probably pondered on this at some point in their lives.
The fact is that I am an exception. I have no compulsion to reproduce; never have. Only a few moments in my life has a viable argument in favour of breeding entered my head:
- Once, in my late 30s, when it occurred to me that having children is the only means of preserving any bit of one's youth and vitality.
- Once when I felt a tinge of regret that my musical talent wouldn't be passed on to any future generations.
But those arguments were quickly overruled by logic: In the first case, I reasoned that this was as may be, but still didn't make all the downsides worthwhile; in the second case, I realised that there was no guarantee any child of mine would be musically talented, and in the split second thereafter I realised that this is where so many parents go wrong -- having expectations for kids that aren't even born yet, and who inevitably disappoint them by not exhibiting the combination of inherited traits the parents desired.
What Bill's question prompted me to ask myself was: If I were male, would his theory apply to me? In other words, do I actually possess an "inborn compulsion to reproduce" which has been decisively overruled by my stronger desire to not go through pregnancy and childbirth?
In my two previous long-term relationships, my male partners have expressed the desire to have kids. Easy for them to say, was my reaction. But I loved my grown-up partner enough that I actually considered whether there were any conditions under which I'd be willing to become a parent, for their sake. The absolute conditions on this would have been: I don't have to give birth (so adoption); we could skip the earliest, neediest years, before the kid could communicate verbally and use the toilet on its own (so adopting an older child); and they, not me, would be the primary caregiver. In other words, I could never be a mum, but perhaps I could be a dad. In the end the deciding factor was that even if all of my conditions for parenthood were met, if anything happened to my (actual or hypothetical) partner, I'd end up being a single parent to a child I never actually wanted. And no child deserves that. So thus ended the thought exercise.
A hypothetical "inborn compulsion to reproduce" could be overruled by other factors besides not wanting to endure pregnancy and childbirth. For instance, there's the cynic's argument of not wanting to bring a child into a world which is facing imminent ecological and economic devastation. There's also the survivor-of-abuse argument; some people's parents were so horrible as to put them off even the idea of ever being a parent themselves. These motivations are not gender-specific. I've known people in both categories, and am firmly in the first camp myself. Are these motivators sufficient to override the "inborn compulsion", or are they evidence that this "inborn compulsion" is in no way universal?
Because it's really hard to overrule actual inborn compulsions. Look at people who are gay and try to suppress it, for instance. If people were actively suppressing a compulsion to breed, rather than just not having one in the first place, then pretty much everyone would at some point change their mind about having kids, or regret missing their chance. And not everyone does. So no, I think the existence of people who are truly happily child-free into old age disproves the theory.
Counter arguments?
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I also think people's circle of friends depends on their views. Am guessing if ford_prefect had copied your post onto his lj rather than most people supporting you most people would be attacking you there. Certainly from Facebook friends they seem to be split between the yay no kids group (the majority) and the wanting kids / have kids and see how many baby/kids photos they can post in a day. What I've noticed is most of the group who want to have kids / have gotten kids and continually post pictures of them is with nearly all of them I got to know them as a partner of one of my friends rather than someone who I made a friend with without encouragement. Which just goes to show I pick a lot of my friends by having some similar views to me.
My best friend's wife (who is constantly posting baby pictures and is taking a maternity break from being a lawyer) said when she was at uni there were plenty of women in her year who didn't want children but one by one all of them got pregnant. So changing mind does happen for some people (which is why others are so convinced everyone will change their mind). Certainly I can think of a few people I was interested in who did change their mind later and I was very glad I didn't go out with them.
I've had a lot of "you'll change your mind" from a lot of people, especially mum. Personally I worry about turning into my dad parent style wise (which'd be no good for anyone) but more to the point I have a few things that are hereditory wrong with me (eg severe eczema - thanks, dad) that I would really need to hate a person to give them it. That is usually the way I silence the people who keep going on at me to have kids. Certainly when my mum was cooing over my sister being pregnant she was all "you'll change your views on children when you have ones you are closely related to". I think one is 8 and the other is 6 and have seen one once and the other twice and have no interest in seeing photos of them, something that stunned my mum. She usually tries to show them to me by claiming she needs help viewing them because of technical problems. Having said that once I was very proud of her eldest - he was bullied at school by a lot bigger kid a lot and Sonny used karate on the bigger kid and knocked him out cold. My sister was put in the awkward situation of being called in to see the head who expected her to be sorry when she was quite proud of him for what he did.
One thing that I reckon for blokes who are broody about having children they should "try before they buy", ie go out and live with someone who does have them for a while and see if that changes their mind. A lot of people who have rosy views of being parents often find their views shattered by something like that. Certainly I know of a couple who was considering having a kid after getting married, but the couple in the flat above them did so. 8 months of sleepless nights caused by screaming babies and hearing a lot of arguments from upstairs seemed to have put them off it.
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That has happened for me, but "changing my views on children" took the form of "allowing that other people's children can be tolerable at times" rather than "changing my views about whether I personally want children."