More debate on broodiness

[djpsyche]

Mainly in case ford_prefect42 doesn't come back to my previous post.

"I kinda figure that everyone has an inborn compulsion to reproduce. It's kinda evolutionary."

It's an interesting theory and I'd like to pick it apart.

If you could define "an inborn compulsion to reproduce" as "a curiosity as to what their offspring would look/be like," then yeah, I do think that everyone has probably pondered on this at some point in their lives.

The fact is that I am an exception. I have no compulsion to reproduce; never have. Only a few moments in my life has a viable argument in favour of breeding entered my head:
- Once, in my late 30s, when it occurred to me that having children is the only means of preserving any bit of one's youth and vitality.
- Once when I felt a tinge of regret that my musical talent wouldn't be passed on to any future generations.

But those arguments were quickly overruled by logic: In the first case, I reasoned that this was as may be, but still didn't make all the downsides worthwhile; in the second case, I realised that there was no guarantee any child of mine would be musically talented, and in the split second thereafter I realised that this is where so many parents go wrong -- having expectations for kids that aren't even born yet, and who inevitably disappoint them by not exhibiting the combination of inherited traits the parents desired.

What Bill's question prompted me to ask myself was: If I were male, would his theory apply to me? In other words, do I actually possess an "inborn compulsion to reproduce" which has been decisively overruled by my stronger desire to not go through pregnancy and childbirth?

In my two previous long-term relationships, my male partners have expressed the desire to have kids. Easy for them to say, was my reaction. But I loved my grown-up partner enough that I actually considered whether there were any conditions under which I'd be willing to become a parent, for their sake. The absolute conditions on this would have been: I don't have to give birth (so adoption); we could skip the earliest, neediest years, before the kid could communicate verbally and use the toilet on its own (so adopting an older child); and they, not me, would be the primary caregiver. In other words, I could never be a mum, but perhaps I could be a dad. In the end the deciding factor was that even if all of my conditions for parenthood were met, if anything happened to my (actual or hypothetical) partner, I'd end up being a single parent to a child I never actually wanted. And no child deserves that. So thus ended the thought exercise.

A hypothetical "inborn compulsion to reproduce" could be overruled by other factors besides not wanting to endure pregnancy and childbirth. For instance, there's the cynic's argument of not wanting to bring a child into a world which is facing imminent ecological and economic devastation. There's also the survivor-of-abuse argument; some people's parents were so horrible as to put them off even the idea of ever being a parent themselves. These motivations are not gender-specific. I've known people in both categories, and am firmly in the first camp myself. Are these motivators sufficient to override the "inborn compulsion", or are they evidence that this "inborn compulsion" is in no way universal?

Because it's really hard to overrule actual inborn compulsions. Look at people who are gay and try to suppress it, for instance. If people were actively suppressing a compulsion to breed, rather than just not having one in the first place, then pretty much everyone would at some point change their mind about having kids, or regret missing their chance. And not everyone does. So no, I think the existence of people who are truly happily child-free into old age disproves the theory.

Counter arguments?

Comments

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

Well, one sort of counter-argument is to look at how many people that start out at "I will never have children" actually *do* change their minds. It's really the vast majority. IE, "Pretty much everyone" does end up either with children, or regretting the lack. Exceptions exist, of course.

Second is that inborn compulsions are difficult to overcome, but some (few) people still do it. There are, in the real world, examples of homosexuals that never have homosexual sex. There are asexuals that reproduce, psychopaths that never kill, and autistics that communicate. It's *hard*, but it's not impossible, so the fact that some have done so doesn't disprove the existence of a pretty darned universal compulsion.

Now, I am not in your head, and I didn't live your life, however, the impulses you described, to pass on your musical talent, or preserve your youth, may have been squashed pretty quickly, but squashing them is still what you're describing. Basically, hitting the snoozebar on the bio-clock until it decides to shut off (which has caused me to miss many days at work :( ) But the vast majority of people don't have the wherewithal to hit that particular snoozebar that many times, because, unlike with the alarm clock, it actually does take some will, logic, and strength. Hitting the snoozebar is the more difficult path, not the easier one. So, it's feasible that a combination of an unusually weak compulsion, combined with a particularly strong distaste for the process resulted in a happy child-free result. TLDR, there are exceptions to every rule, doesn't mean the rule is necessarily wrong.

And it really does kinda fit the pattern of evolution in a "selfish gene" kind of way that pretty much everyone would have the urge to pass on their genes. From an evolutionary standpoint, it's the only actual purpose that organisms have!

[djpsyche.livejournal.com]

Well, one sort of counter-argument is to look at how many people that start out at "I will never have children" actually *do* change their minds. It's really the vast majority. IE, "Pretty much everyone" does end up either with children, or regretting the lack.

And what is your source for this, please? Other than projecting your own experience onto everyone else, which is, of course, what I am probably doing as well when I see lots of people NOT changing their minds?

I'd also remind you that most people != all people.

So let's ask Google:
Part of this article seems to be missing (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/06/14/child_free_do_they_change_their_minds_.html), but three out of three child-free subjects did not change their minds in 12 years.
Can't read this entire article (http://time.com/241/having-it-all-without-having-children/), and this follow-up (http://werenothavingababy.com/childfree/youll-change-mind-childfree-myth-busted/) found that of the couples profiled, one did change their mind, but the others did not.
Most of the links I am finding are from childfree blogs, which I accept are inherently biased. It would be interesting to do a longitudinal study, find people in their 20s who say they don't want children, and then go back and find those same people 30 years later to see the results.

"There are, in the real world, examples of homosexuals that never have homosexual sex. There are asexuals that reproduce, psychopaths that never kill, and autistics that communicate. It's *hard*, but it's not impossible"

It's not at all hard for me to come up with reasons not to have kids. And the gay people who force themselves to not act on their desires aren't happy. People who don't want kids and don't have kids are happy.

the impulses you described, to pass on your musical talent, or preserve your youth, may have been squashed pretty quickly, but squashing them is still what you're describing.

No; they're more like, as Mel describes below, wondering whether I fancy a sandwich and then deciding I don't -- or, to draw a better parallel, being on a tall building and getting a momentary impulse to jump off, and within a split second deciding that, no, that's stupid, of course I don't want to kill myself. You think that not jumping is hard? No, it's the easiest thing ever to overrule that momentary, irrational impulse. And I've had those impulses far more often than twice in my life, and here I am, still alive, with no aching regret that I didn't jump, and no belief whatsoever that at some point in the future I will "change my mind".

And yes, believing that a rule is "everyone thinks/feels this" but discovering exceptions DOES in fact mean the assumption is wrong. You can't claim that everyone likes pizza when you've met someone who doesn't like pizza. All you can claim is that pizza is popular.

[beluosus]

And what is your source for this, please? Other than projecting your own experience onto everyone else, which is, of course, what I am probably doing as well when I see lots of people NOT changing their minds?

Psyche, I don't think you're projecting. You are drawing inferences about what people feel from the information they present. Lots of people we know say they don't want kids and are happy not having them; there is no a priori reason to believe that they are lying or deluded when they tell you this.

And the proportion of childless people who regret not reproducing seems insignificant compared to the myriad of people who do regret having children.

[djpsyche.livejournal.com]

I'm allowing for confirmation bias. When I see other people who said they didn't want kids and then didn't change their mind, this affirms my own experience, so I'm more likely to see this as the norm. ford_prefect42 sees the opposite as confirmation that his experience is the typical one. My rough guess is that it's probably somewhere around 50/50; but then I usually place odds of things at 50/50 when I've seen some of each thing, and of course those numbers are at least somewhat inaccurate.

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

There is this longitudinal reputable study... Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall.
http://www.jstor.org/stable/353767?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

There is also, WAY less scientifically, this survey, indicating that more than half of respondents said they didn't want children:
http://surveycentral.org/survey/want-children--25873.html

And yet, 87% of women and 81% of men reproduce.

Assuming that ALL of those that did want, or were uncertain did have children (not a good assumption), that means that 18 out of the 25 that originally said "no", eventually did reproduce, and that's neglecting the ones that did change their minds, and just "waited too long".

So the notion that teenagers don't know what they will ultimately want is on pretty decent footing based on what I can come up with for actual numbers.

[sushidog.livejournal.com]

That first study looked at childless (at point 1) people across two time points. 20 percent of them were happily and intentionally childless at point 2 (that's 13% who originally wanted to have children but changed their minds by point 2, and 7% who never wanted them). I'd say that's pretty conclusive, wouldn't you? 20% cannot be written off as just a handful of rare exceptions.

[djpsyche.livejournal.com]

Teenagers, possibly. Were we talking about teenagers? I was talking about adults. And you clearly were talking about adults when you spoke of people who regretted that they didn't breed when they had a chance.

When you give your 87% / 81% figures, do those take into account access to safe and legal abortion?

And do they take into account those people who did reproduce, but regretted having done so?

[djpsyche.livejournal.com]

I'm debating whether to pay to download that study... then I see that its researchers are from Brigham Young University, a Mormon university. So it's no less unbiased than the childfree blogs I declined to link to earlier, in the interest of objectivity.

[sushidog.livejournal.com]

I have access to it; pm me an email address and I'll send it to you, but basically it says that in their sample, 20% of people either didn't want children at either timepoint, or originally thought they did, but then changed their mind and decided they didn't.

[djpsyche.livejournal.com]

Are there other possible explanations, besides a universal biological compulsion to reproduce (which would lead to a conclusion that 13% / 19% of the population are either infertile or never found the appropriate partner), that could explain such high rates of reproduction?

I'd suggest as possibilities:
- Societal pressure to have children, even if you yourself feel no compulsion
- Desire to please a partner, even if you yourself feel no compulsion
- Accidental pregnancy and religious beliefs/lack of access to abortion/the man not getting a say

Surely these possibilities could explain at least some of the disparity between percentages of teenagers who said they don't want children and adults who did have children. As well as changed minds. I'm not denying that some minds change. I just don't feel like it's "the vast majority".

According to your study, none of the people who reported that they didn't want a child at Wave I had had one by Wave 2, and while 62% of the people who said they didn't want a child at Wave I had either changed their mind or were uncertain, 38% had not. That is enough proof for me that "the vast majority" is a massive overstatement of incidence of mind-changing. In addition, more people changed their mind from wanting kids to not wanting or unsure than the other way round.

Bill, if you'd like to see the full study, I'll forward it to you.

[ford-prefect42.livejournal.com]

I would appreciate that!

[djpsyche.livejournal.com]

PM me your e-mail address.

[sushidog.livejournal.com]

There are asexuals that reproduce, psychopaths that never kill, and autistics that communicate.
A-sexuality is not a compulsion not to reproduce, psychopathy is not a compulsion to kill, and autism is not a compulsion not to communicate, so none of these examples tell us anything about overcoming compulsions.

[fragglechick.livejournal.com]

I love this comment, and concur wholeheartedly.

[flavius-m.livejournal.com]

This, indeed.